Saturday, July 18, 2015

Law 1



Genie Dinh
July 7 at 6:17pm
My boyfriend has an issue with the vietnamese police refusing to register where he lives. They claim its illegal for foreigners to cohabit with a Vietnamese person and its illegal for them to live in a private house (we own half the house each, the police said they didnt care). Has anyone else had a similar issue and how did they deal with it?
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  • 14 people like this.
  • Roger Whittemore Coffee money?
    July 7 at 6:21pm · Like · 6
  • Genie Dinh They denied it
    July 7 at 6:21pm · Like
  • David DeCoster It's not illegal
    July 7 at 6:21pm · Like · 2
  • Shane Wall YOU own the house; HE 'rents' a room!
    July 7 at 6:23pm · Like
  • Genie Dinh We know it's not illegal. But the police are being typical assholes. Apparently they won't take a bribe let's call it what it is.
    July 7 at 6:23pm · Like · 4
  • Shane Wall BTW, is your boyfriend's name on the house purchase contract/Land Use Rights Deed?
    July 7 at 6:23pm · Like
  • Genie Dinh I name on the house,and we have contract that he own Half of the house,
    July 7 at 6:24pm · Like
  • Richard Taylor I think you need to do some things like install fire systems and register the house for foreigners to live there. Hopefully, some experts can contribute to what it actually takes.
    July 7 at 6:25pm · Like
  • Shane Wall Then YOU are the Landlady, so rent a room to your BF!
    July 7 at 6:26pm · Like
  • Genie Dinh They changed the rules in 2000 re cohabitation. They are just being dickheads. If I rent a room to him we then need another permit and to pay tax on a house we own!
    July 7 at 6:28pm · Like
  • Genie Dinh They changed the rules in 2000 re cohabitation. They are just being dickheads. If I rent a room to him we then need another permit and to pay tax on a house we own!
    July 7 at 6:28pm · Like
  • Liam Nguyen Its bullshit that those fags dont take bribe, it means your bribe is not enough
    July 7 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
  • Robert Bicknell If you're unmarried you cannot live together. Law has been a pain in the ass for a very long time
    July 7 at 6:30pm · Like · 1
  • Terry Hoang Foreigner cannot live with a Vietnamese national if they aren't married.
    July 7 at 6:31pm · Like · 1
  • Genie Dinh First time they recieved it,but second time they force him to renew it after 6 month living here because it's a higher up policeman. Who seems to know even less about Vietnamese law than a monkey! Which is all he is a monkey in a suit anyway!
    July 7 at 6:31pm · Like
  • Genie Dinh Law changed in 2000, the pain in the ass is the police picking and choosing how they enforce laws.
    July 7 at 6:32pm · Like · 2
  • Terry Hoang No it didn't. The hotel industry still use this law.
    July 7 at 6:32pm · Like · 2
  • Geoffrey Deetz M*O*N*E*Y MAKES IT ALL GO AWAY! TRY A SMALL BIT OF COFFEE MONEY
    July 7 at 6:32pm · Like
  • Tien Bromm To be honest: money unsure emoticon
    July 7 at 6:33pm · Like
  • David Le How long you and this bf been together?
    July 7 at 6:33pm · Like
  • David Le it matters smile emoticon
    July 7 at 6:34pm · Like
  • Leon Poyser It hasn't been illegal since 2007.
    July 7 at 6:34pm · Like · 1
  • Robert Bicknell Law is still on the books
    July 7 at 6:35pm · Like
  • Genie Dinh The law changed with the 2000 marriage and family law changes. Both hotels and the police enforce a law that doesn't exist because they are dickheads.
    July 7 at 6:35pm · Like · 10
  • Geoffrey Deetz cut and paste
    July 7 at 6:35pm · Like
  • Peter Cornish As with most situations like this in Vietnam, you have two options - go full retard and start beating people to death, or realise you won't win because fuck you so just walk away. Either option is a Nguyen for the locals
    July 7 at 6:36pm · Like
  • David Le well, if she answers the question, Ill be able to tell her something possibly beneficial
    July 7 at 6:38pm · Edited · Like
  • Geoffrey Deetz Cut and paste
    July 7 at 6:38pm · Like
  • Soren Kirchner Get married.
    July 7 at 6:38pm · Like
  • Jerome Claude Spies It doesnt matter. The law is the law. My friend was forced to go to a hotel and eventually he got kicked out of Vietnam because he kept going back and arguing.
    July 7 at 6:39pm · Like · 1
  • Olivier Maquaire I had 2 experiences in that matter. I do live with my girlfriend, and the registration was not an issue. Anyway, another friend of mine had to sign a paper stating that they would be get married within the year so that they could live together... It's only from 2 years ago. Guess only a lawyer could advise you on that issue and help you claim your rights.
    July 7 at 6:39pm · Like · 2
  • Skip Nelson We had the same issue in Hanoi before we got married. We gave him some money and they ignored it for awhile. We also had to sign the marriage intent letter. Now we are married and everything is fine.
    July 7 at 6:40pm · Edited · Like
  • Felix Hoàng Had a similar issue before. I am almost certain that it is not illegal. Ask them to tell you which law they refer to since they often quote old laws that do not apply anymore. Two documents you can read are:
    http://www.moj.gov.vn/.../Vn%20bn.../View_Detail.aspx...

    http://www.moj.gov.vn/.../Vn%20bn.../View_Detail.aspx...

    They say nothing about a foreigner living with a Vietnamese being illegal. However, I'm obviously not a lawyer and presenting laws to angry police officers might not be the best choice in some situations. Just FYI ...
    July 7 at 6:40pm · Like · 5
  • Robert Bicknell The law is still on the books. Social evils and all that crap. That said, not all cops enforce it
    July 7 at 6:40pm · Like · 1
  • Jerome Claude Spies Law might have changed but real law is they do what they want. Last year is when my friend was kicked out. He also had a lawyer.... just sayin.... best to just move or bribe
    July 7 at 6:41pm · Like · 1
  • Capitan Kendar Don't get married just to live together or for a TRC.
    July 7 at 6:42pm · Like · 1
  • Geoffrey Deetz It is illegal all over asia! Depends on who wants to fruck with you. And a contract between her and her boyfriend means nothing here. Pay or marry.
    July 7 at 6:42pm · Edited · Like
  • Robert Bicknell Most cops are ok, to be honest. They know most of the laws are dumb but they have no choice. Work with them and they make it easier.
    July 7 at 6:42pm · Like · 1
  • Capitan Kendar Many locals have told me its ok to live with someone if not married. Asking for tea money goes back to the French (so I'm told).
    July 7 at 6:43pm · Like
  • Genie Dinh I could provide a source for them changing it. The issue here isn't the law it's the cops not doing what they should. They basically just make stuff up as they go along. It's 100% legal for unmarried couples to cohabit now.
    July 7 at 6:44pm · Like · 2
  • Geoffrey Deetz Yes paul
    July 7 at 6:44pm · Like · 1
  • Robert Bicknell Paul, my source is the police who still as to see documents here at The Manor. My wife still has to occasionally show our marriage certificate whenever there is a new cop.
    July 7 at 6:45pm · Like
  • Geoffrey Deetz Its not Genie because were one law says ok the other says no so its totally up tonthe police.
    July 7 at 6:46pm · Like
  • Robert Bicknell Hey, just to to Cambodia or Thailand and get a fake certificate
    July 7 at 6:46pm · Like
  • Geoffrey Deetz Yes me as well at the manor with my wife and kids
    July 7 at 6:46pm · Like
  • Robert Bicknell Geoff , see the occasional notices in the elevators reminding people ?
    July 7 at 6:47pm · Like
  • Felix Hoàng Here's a quote from a Vietnamese lawyer (I believe) in another thread as I have asked the same question before:

    "Question 1: Is it correct for ward police to knock on your door in the middle of the night to check for residency registration?

    Short answer is: yes.

    In line with Circular No. 52/2010/TT-BCA by the Ministry of Public Security detailing a number of articles of the residence law then ward police can conduct periodical or extraordinary inspections. The thing is that if extraordinary inspections have been conducted “too many times” than necessary, you have the right to complain to the People’s Committee of the ward you are staying at. After a complaint is filed, the ward police will be more careful in the future they bother you. My understanding of some people being visited too much by the ward police is that the police assume that you – as foreigners are easy (and rich) victims for them to take advantage of. Please do not be afraid of such threat or bully. Please contact me at 0906776919 – Name is Linh - Vietnamese lawyer to help if you think there may be violations of the above. I’m quoting the laws here for your reference.
    Article 26. Residence examination
    1. Residence examination shall be earned out through periodical or extraordinary inspections in response to requirements of crime prevention and combat as well as security and order maintenance activities.

    Question 2: is it correct that a foreigner cannot stay with an unmarried Vietnamese?
    Short answer: no.

    In search for the answer, I looked at the newest Laws No. 47/2014/QH13 on Entry, Exit, Transit, and Residence of Foreigners in Vietnam.

    My understanding after researching is that as long as a foreigner stay in a valid lodging establishments and the owner of such lodging establishment has registered for your residency then you have the right to stay with whoever you want (As long as both of you are registered for temporary residency, of course). See references below:
    Article 32. Lodging establishments
    Lodging establishments are places where foreigners temporary reside within Vietnam’s territory, including lodging establishments for tourists, guesthouses, housing areas for foreigners who work, study, or serve their internship in Vietnam, medical facilities, private houses, and other lodging establishments defined by law.

    And the law regarding the registration at such lodging establishments:
    Article 33. Declaration of temporary residence
    1. Any foreigner that temporary resides in Vietnam must, via the manager of the lodging establishment, declare his/her temporary residence at the local police authority.

    One notice though: it is not legal if you stay and have sexual relationship like husband and wife with a married Vietnamese. The Vietnamese will be condemned as “having an affairs” and shall be subject to administrative fine from 1,000,000 VND to 3,000,000 VND following this Decree No. 110/2013/ND-CP on regulation on sanction of administrative violation in the field of judicial assistance, judicial administration, marriage and family, civil judgment enforcement, enterprise and cooperative bankruptcy
    Article 48. Acts of violation of regulation on prohibition of marriage, monogamy; violation of regulation on divorce
    1. A fine of between VND 1,000,000 and 3,000,000 shall be imposed for one of the acts as follows:
    b) Being married but living as husband and wife with another person;
    c) Being single but living as husband and wife with another person known as married person;

    In conclusion: it is mandatory for the manager/landlord to register you. If you are registered and your partner (who is not married) is also registered then you are protected by the laws to stay with your partner."
    July 7 at 6:47pm · Like · 7
  • Genie Dinh That's ridiculous the national government changed the law. Surely the police can't pick and choose what laws they will and won't enforce.
    July 7 at 6:48pm · Like · 2
  • Robert Bicknell Welcome to Vietnam
    July 7 at 6:50pm · Like · 3
  • Richard Taylor I've encountered it once in mui ne. With a bit of sweet talking they had us sign for separate hotel rooms and was charged for only one.
    July 7 at 6:53pm · Like
  • Soren Kirchner ...where the house always wins...short term
    July 7 at 6:53pm · Like
  • Geoffrey Deetz Yes they can and they do Genie
    July 7 at 6:55pm · Like · 1
  • Fred Moro Get married quickly so...
    July 7 at 7:01pm · Like
  • Robert Bicknell Many hotels will do the same. Let you register for two rooms then only charge you a token fee for the second one .
    July 7 at 7:03pm · Like
  • Robert Bicknell One work around is declare your boyfriend as a family member. An uncle or something
    July 7 at 7:04pm · Like
  • Edo Rauscher 4get about ego and pay a little bit of pocket money every month until you find some solution for that
    July 7 at 7:04pm · Like · 2
  • Geoffrey Deetz Pay!!!!! Ila pays ok
    July 7 at 7:05pm · Like
  • Willis Wong Which Ward (police) is it under? Please share with us so we will avoid this area!
    July 7 at 8:59pm · Edited · Like
  • Sam Nguyen yes, even you're the owner you still have to register with local police (Công An Phường). This is the law in Vietnam and of course applied everywhere. If you're renting, it's the landlord's responsibilities to do that, so ask the landlord to give you a copy of the registration, they have to. The police have the rights to arrest you for 24hrs to verify who you are if you don't register and there will be administrative fine for that. Pls do that to avoid further troubles. Good luck.
    July 7 at 9:31pm · Edited · Like
  • Kristian Svk Somogyi get in touch with a lawyer and ask the lawyer to get in touch with the cops
    July 7 at 9:31pm · Like · 4
  • Robert Bicknell Have the owner register you both as having separate rooms
    July 7 at 9:43pm · Like
  • Pham Hong Hanh Give the police some money monthly. They will shut their mouths up. I did it and it worked.
    July 7 at 9:47pm · Unlike · 2
  • Andrew Richardson In America we can sue the government if they are not conforming to the laws or the constitution. Of course it's a complicated topic - you'd have to go to law school to fully understand. 
    I don't know about Vietnamese law. Everyone always talks about the extralegal ways to get satisfaction, but is there a legal way to confront authority here? I doubt it.
    July 7 at 9:54pm · Like · 1
  • Kenneth Mai Le Show them uncle Ho! Haha money makes the police spin around 
    July 7 at 10:42pm · Like
  • Chris Lawrence I was wondering about this law. Last week a hotel in Binh Thanh wouldn't accept my Chinese wife and I because we had no 'proof' that we were married (except wedding rings). I was surprised they applied the law to foreign couples too (maybe they just didn't believe my wife wasn't Vietnamese...)
    July 8 at 12:12am · Like
  • Daniel Jason Seems like your bf is worth fighting for. Marry him! End of story!
    July 8 at 6:53am · Like
  • Tuan Huynh Chris Lawrence did you guys not show them your respective passports?
    July 8 at 7:28am · Like · 1
  • Tuấn Anh Phạm I have to say in this case the police is "legally" right. Foreign ownership of a house has not been completed. 1) Legally a foreigner can only live in a place where it's a registered business. 2) If they could prove that the person they're staying is a relative, i.e "Viet Kieu" coming back on a holiday and stays with theirs siblings or parents.
    July 8 at 8:31am · Like
  • Matthew Lourey Tuan is sort of correct. The ownership (legal ownership - pink book) is in the name of Genie. She has a foreign tenant staying in her house in the eye of the law ("boyfriend" doesn't really cut it in legal terms). So, unless the "tenant" is properly registered, which requires tax registration of the house etc, the local police are within their rights to refuse to register him, unfortunately.
    July 8 at 8:36am · Like
  • Tuan Huynh I think you referring to TA Pham Matthew Lourey but the law has changed and it is possible for the OP to act as a sponsor to her boy friend i think...but depending where you live... district , ward etc and how much they know about the new law....In effect she would be operating similar to the role of a landlord...
    July 8 at 8:40am · Edited · Like
  • Matthew Lourey Yes Tuan Huynh, I was referring to the post above mine. But you are correct that it is simply a landlord issue - as the house owner she needs to register the house to to be able to have (foreign) tenants, and then put him in the book as a tenant. Problem solved.
    July 8 at 8:41am · Like · 2
  • Andrew Richardson Nice one Matthew Lourey.
    July 8 at 9:03am · Like
  • Andrew Richardson So a person staying in a house is either tenant or family. One or the other. (Except OP mentioned he is also an owner; another layer of complexity)
    July 8 at 9:06am · Like · 1
  • Tuan Huynh Yes Andrew Richardson but i am not sure how he would have been able to have his name on the original contract as a part owner...
    July 8 at 9:08am · Like
  • Willis Wong Probably a separate personal contract.
    July 8 at 9:19am · Like
  • Andrew Richardson Yes, that the police department is not equipped to evaluate.
    July 8 at 9:22am · Like
  • Johnny Le Manh Hung Dear Genie Dinh 
    I am Johnny from Vietnam visa Experts - Sunviet
    The police is following the law ... it is illegal case
    IT is impossible for a foreigner stay in a private house if he does not have married certificate OR the family relationship with the owner.
    You please ask any Vietnamese ... who can help him... 
    I bet he can get the registration if he knows a good connection
    good luck!
    JOHNNY LE MANH HUNG/MR
    H/P: 0912 565 368 
    Vietnam Visa Expert
    ===================
    SUNVIET CORP.
    HEAD OFFICE: 
    6 Floor (Room. 602 A), Smart View Building, 163-165 Tran Hung Dao st (the corner of De Tham street and Tran Hung Dao street, beside the Cathedral), Co Giang Ward, Dist 1, Hochiminh City
    Tel: +84 8 22374842 --- Fax: +84 8 35592801 
    Mail to: hungle@sunviettravel.com 
    General email: visa@sunviettravel.com 
    expat@vietnamvisainfo.net
    July 8 at 5:05pm · Like
  • Jarek Niskiewicz One more reason NOT to buy property in VN, so that you don't have to deal with BS as this and be told who can and who cannot stay at your place... Tell your BF to move to TH, less BS there...
    July 8 at 5:20pm · Edited · Like · 3
  • Mark Young Sounds like they want some "coffee money" to me. Slip a million or 2 into your passport when you go there next
    July 8 at 5:28pm · Unlike · 2
  • Victor Lavrenko didn't read comments, sorry, but how many people offered you just to marry each other? smile emoticon
    July 8 at 5:37pm · Like
  • Siêu Nem Mập Johnny Le Manh Hung that funny because before get married with a Vietnamesse woman we lived together and my ambassy told me the law about that change since many year and it's not illegal
    July 8 at 5:58pm · Like · 3
  • Tim Camp Hotels just enforce this "law" because it is a racket maintained by police cooperation with the sole purpose of extorting visitors. Even back when it was a law, it did not mention foreigners, it was aimed at Vietnamese citizens. Foreigners were always a grey area which is why it was open to interpretation. Now, there is no law on the books forbidding umarried people of the opposite sex, regardless of nationality, from living together. If it was illegal then every house in the "expat alley" on NTMK would be breaking the law, since they're private houses, not hotels. However, police have pretty much free reign, and they have different policies in every district and ward. Some are cunts, some are quite welcoming to a new source of bribes. The lesson: as a foreigner, check with the local police BEFORE renting or buying a house.
    July 8 at 6:28pm · Like · 1
  • Robert Bicknell I seem to remember, back in the 90's in Hanoi, a visiting British government official staying at a hotel with his Chinese wife getting his door kicked in in the middle of the night and him getting carted off to jail and deported the next morning while his wife getting tossed into jail. There was a huge stink about it and those officers sent to the Chinese border.
    July 8 at 6:34pm · Like
  • Matthew Lourey Guys, the issue here has nothing to do with married/umarried - it is simply that you (usually) cannot register a foreigner at a private house that is not registered with tax/local authorities as a rental premises....unless they are family or a short term visit.
    July 8 at 6:34pm · Like · 1
  • Tim Camp Robert Bicknell - "back in the 90's" Yes, exactly. The gov changes laws more often than they change underwear. Much of what was illegal then is not illegal now, cohabitation is just one example. They were markedly more heavy-handed back then, as you know.
    July 8 at 6:45pm · Like · 2
  • Tuấn Anh Phạm We're going around in circles. http://m.danviet.vn/.../nguoi-nuoc-ngoai-co-duoc-tam-tru...
    Notification off
    Người nước ngoài có được tạm trú ở nhà riêng của công dân không?
    Anh ấy có thẻ tạm trú (trước kia anh ấy đăng ký tạm trú...
    BY DANVIET.VN
    July 8 at 6:46pm · Like
  • Jonatan Cruz Valderrama I call bullshit, i was registered at my girlfriend's apartment on d7 without problems. There was a 500k fee thought... just register at the very small police office on the red book. Then go to the big one to do the paperwork for the visa and finish it at immigration department at d1. Just claim that you are family or about to be.
    2 hrs · Like
  • Miley Temple If a police does something bad, can you go to his superior? Can you go to a captain? Can you go up the chain of command? Can you hold police & government accountable? Can you talk to lawyers & to other police, government officials, & others, when illegal things occur, instead of slipping out coffee money? There should be some kind of way of fighting social injustice. Asians avoid conflict but things cannot get better if we just avoid the conflict. We should all get up each day & try our best to be like Rosa Parks

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