Sunday, December 14, 2014

The Fall of the Champa



Matthew Kershaw
16 hrs · Edited
Seeing as we live in Vietnam, here is a little historical piece I just researched and wrote up:
The Fall of the Champa
The Chams once ruled a Hindu influenced kingdom called Champa (Chăm Pa) whose rule extended through what is now central and southern Vietnam and parts of Cambodia. Cham society was organised in a cluster of city-states, not very different from ancient Greece. They were quite advanced with walled cities, palaces, monuments, books and archives, many of which were built by slaves. It had a powerful fleet that was used for commerce with China, India, the Indonesian islands, and the Middle East. A lot of the shipping trade came out of the Cham city of Lâm Ấp Phố (present day Hội An) which was the largest harbour in South East Asia in the 1st century. Due to lack of arable land in their narrow territory, they also resorted to piracy all along the present coast of Vietnam. Champa had a history of constant conflict with the Dai Viet (Vietnamese), Khmer (Cambodians), Java (Indonesians) and later the Mongols.
The downfall of Champa occurred in 1471 when the Vietnamese Emperor, Lê Thánh Tông, an extraordinary administrator and leader, invaded Champa with a huge force outnumbering the Cham by three to one. The Vietnamese army was well organised and had large numbers of gunpowder weapons, an idea modeled on the Chinese army of the time. By contrast the Cham were without any gunpowder weapons.
The Vietnamese army killed 60,000 when taking and destroying the capital Vijaya, and then they proceeded to burn massive parts of Champa, soon seizing most of the country. The Vietnamese took 30,000 Cham as slaves and enacted forced assimilation of Vietnamese culture onto the Cham people.
After that time, Cham dissidents to the absorption were forced into exile or scattered to remote villages in the mountains. The majority migrated Cambodia and others to Malaysia and Thailand where they remain to this day.
Like · 
  • 86 people like this.
  • Mario Piazza Yes, very interesting
    16 hrs · Like · 1
  • Timothy Clifford Yes interesting, thanks for the post.
    16 hrs · Like · 2
  • Long Le I have Never heard this story before.school don't teach this too..
    16 hrs · Like · 1
  • Khanh Bui I learned about this before through a Civilization 5 mod. 
    16 hrs · Like · 3
  • Matthew Kershaw Of course you won't learn about this in school. You learn how all the land was 'absorbed' through an arranged marriage with a Cham princess.
    16 hrs · Like · 12
  • Khanh Bui Hah, yeah. In order to find the truth, one has to go out of his/her way to find it. No doubt that the "official" VNese history book has many "edits".
    16 hrs · Unlike · 2
  • Matthew Kershaw All the information about this is freely available on the internet 
    16 hrs · Like
  • Lâm Maxine Dai Viet not Dia Viet
    15 hrs · Like · 1
  • Khanh Bui And that's the beauty of this age of information. That is before a bunch of old white bureaucrats try to fukk it up. Matthew Kershaw
    15 hrs · Like
  • Le Rice Something as free is not trustworthy
    15 hrs · Like · 1
  • Black Baron Vietnam used to be bigger before the French invasion. This is our country in 1829 
    15 hrs · Like · 6
  • Chris Dewaele The name of Saigon was "Prey Nokor" at this time.
    15 hrs · Like · 3
  • Huong Shahzadi Nguyen Could you share the sources with me? I learned that (from some articles on Jstor) they were conquered by the Nguyen family during the Trinh-Nguyen conflict in 1700s. Did not know it dated all the way back in 1400s! Interesting.
    15 hrs · Like · 1
  • Le Rice Your story could be true could be fake. The numbers of casualties are unproven! Yes, mostly the lands absorbed by marriage arrangements since both kingdoms know about the "powers" comparison between the two
    15 hrs · Like · 2
  • Le Rice If Vietnamese was still as big as it was in 1829, what shape of the map should we call?
    15 hrs · Like · 1
  • Don Toan Duy Ages of Kings and War, not sure what happen if Siam win Viet the war 1771; 1841 or Qing dinastry win Viet at same time, or now, France conoly still claim Vietnam or Us Army still bombing Viet land.
    15 hrs · Like
  • Long Le By the way i think Mod game is untrust able..i have been seen a mod which show that vietnam conquest the world with invisible tank and nuclear truck.
    15 hrs · Like
  • Thanh Khiet Ung I highly appriciate your interest in Vietnamese-related history. Anyway, bad or good, all became past.
    15 hrs · Like · 1
  • Le Rice I think he did not mean it was good or bad about the invasion. He tried to give some information which is officially not proven by a trustworthy source. So it stays a legend.
    15 hrs · Like · 5
  • Thanh Khiet Ung Actually all information he gave are correct. We can find it in some history documents writen by earlier Vietnames historians (not lesson taught in school today).
    15 hrs · Like · 11
  • Le Rice Can you give me a link or the name of that document? I'm interested too as long as it ain't bullshit written by biased bitches.
    15 hrs · Like · 1
  • Matthew Kershaw Thanh Khiet Ung History is the past but it is all a current part of individual and national identities. Huong Shahzadi Nguyen there are a few sources of information, just type in 'History of Champa'. A lot of the information comes from Vietnamese academics translated into English. Also there were a lot of conflicts between the Viet and Champa but the one I described was the largest and most famous. A small Champa kingdom survived in the south east of Vietnam right up to 1832.
    15 hrs · Like · 2
  • Black Baron It's funny that Vietnamese always teach their kids about Vietnam as a peacful country that hate war. The reality is that each time we're strong, we always try to invade other countries to expand our teritory lol
    15 hrs · Unlike · 5
  • Ishida Thanh you research missed a part that one king married away his princess for the Champa King to get the land though!
    15 hrs · Like · 2
  • Matthew Kershaw The Vietnamese gained two small Cham provinces only through the arranged marriage and that happened about 2 centuries before the invasion.
    15 hrs · Like · 1
  • Ishida Thanh then why you didnt mentioned? and where are these facts and figures came from? and is this comical?
    15 hrs · Like · 1
  • Matthew Kershaw The title of my writing is 'The Fall of the Champa' and that is what I wrote about. The arranged marriage is just a small insignificant part of the big picture.
    15 hrs · Like
  • Trevor Symes Asian history is very interesting, a lot of wars and hostile takeovers, War has always been a way of life for all Nations, it's Mother Natures way of keeping the humans from destroying all
    15 hrs · Like
  • Ishida Thanh even small or big it should be mentioned to maintain the transparency of the story. Since somehow a small event may cause a big impact. I dont stand anyone side but respect the truth and transparency. And as a procedures I have from school, all the research must provided the source, and absolutely not a new thing you it cant all from your mind. just my humble opinion and by the way, you post is not much concerned to the rules of this page
    15 hrs · Like · 1
  • Ngoc Le It's Dai Viet not "Dia-Viet" lol
    15 hrs · Like · 1
  • Matthew Kershaw Ngoc Le, I can't find any typo error. I wrote 'Dai Viet'.
    15 hrs · Like
  • Lâm Maxine On the map " Dia-viet"
    15 hrs · Like · 2
  • Ngoc Le History taught in school is so biased and missing a lot of important aspects of actual Vietnamese history. They applause the "good" parts and neglect the "bad" parts...*sigh*
    14 hrs · Like
  • Matthew Kershaw Well it was the same when I studied history in school about Australia. It only recently has started to change.
    14 hrs · Like
  • Bao Tran Good piece. I'd like to know more. Thanks for sharing!
    14 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lâm Maxine Every country in the world do that. They dont want their citizents to see the dark side of them.
    14 hrs · Like · 1
  • Kris Wilkins That link at the start to the Greeks & city states- that I guess is because the Cham & the Greeks had similar geographical positions- they were both cut off by mountains into lots of smaller units which could most effectively travel by sea but which had limited room for population growth. It's the constraints of their land which led the Cham to piracy & raiding, exactly like the situation for the Vikings as well
    14 hrs · Like · 1
  • Ishida Thanh READ THIS STICKY
    Welcome to Another Side of Vietnam, a group with focus on the comical, poking fun and weird stuff you encounter in Vietnam.
    Posts here relate directly to Vietnam. They are comical and sometimes strange. They often cause discussion and at times they may raise emotions but at the end of the day it is all in good fun.
    This is not under any circumstances a billboard for listings, announcing events or for advertisement.
    This is not a group for politically sensitive material, political agitation to drive your political agenda forward. Feel free to use your own facebook profile for that, not this group.
    This is not a general group for pet pictures, holiday pictures, internet-meme and all sorts of material that one can dredge endlessly from countless other internet forums.
    This is not a general complaints group where you surf in and rip into Vietnam and the Vietnamese people, simply because you’re having a rough week. Everyone needs to vent at times so please go on and do so, but do it with a friend over a beer, not here.
    Yes the admins delete material every day, we look at things and if we don’t find that it or the comments below suits the group then its goes, simple as that.
    If you see something that does not belong we also appreciate you telling us. Please report the link and we can easily find and delete or block accordingly.
    Enjoy the group,
    14 hrs · Like · 2
  • Kim Pilger Looks like you hit a nerve, Matthew. I don't really see the connection with politics here. This is just history. You can find evidence of it all over the place.
    14 hrs · Like · 4
  • Black Baron This is another side of Vietnam's history. The side that they don't teach us at school ,)
    14 hrs · Like · 2
  • Kim Pilger I think it's relevant. It's not political unless you make it political. The history we learn in school is reworked. This is true in all countries, not just Vietnam.
    14 hrs · Like · 6
  • Bao Tran Totally agreed. Dont be political offensed since its not about politic.
    14 hrs · Like · 1
  • Hoàng Hải There are more than that.
    14 hrs · Like
  • Đạt Độc Đáo This is the truth. Not only Champa but alot ( 15?) Small tribe/nations of the minority had been conquered by Đại Việt ( the great việt). Ever wondered why we have 54 ethnic groups ?
    14 hrs · Like · 2
  • Kris Wilkins Another Side Of Vietnam is a group that focuses on the comical, poking fun at wierd stuff you encounter in Vietnam

    Well, to me, the responses of some members to this post is comical- it amuses me greatly to see people getting flustered and defensive and uptight about a story from their history
    14 hrs · Like · 7
  • Hoàng Hải It's typical in Asia. Asian people never admit any wrong doing of their ancestors. The Khmer, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Vietnamese,.... all the same.
    14 hrs · Like · 6
  • S Uper Tlger Vietnameses are naturally bad from their DNA
    14 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Karen-Leigh Desvaux de Marigny Get a life Ishida!!
    14 hrs · Like
  • Lâm Maxine S Uper Tlger, stupid !
    14 hrs · Like · 1
  • Ishida Thanh you too Karen, please do it before advising people
    13 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Kim Pilger OK, NOW it's getting political...
    13 hrs · Like
  • Kim Pilger Also, S Uper Tiger. There's no need to be racist. You can complain about historical events but your arguments are invalid now that you've framed them in bigotry.
    13 hrs · Like · 5
  • Black Baron "Bad people"? Lol! It happens all over the world dude :)) strong countries invade weak countries and take territories. The Khmer also did it in the past against small nations and tribals to expand their empire.
    13 hrs · Like · 4
  • Kim Pilger Like it or not, it's the history of humankind.
    13 hrs · Like · 3
  • Lê Hồng Việt Long Le Đại Việt Sử Ký toàn thư có ghi chép, không phải bản của nhà nước xuất bản. Nguyễn triều sau khi diệt Tây Sơn thì có công lao lớn trong việc mở mang bờ cõi về phía nam thông qua việc sử dụng đám quan quân phản Thanh phục Minh lưu vong, vùng miền Trung thì là công lao của nhà Trần thông qua hôn nhân và chiến tranh, tuy nhiên nhà Trần có lần đã bị quân Chăm đánh đến tận Thăng Long và triều đình phải rút chạy. Chuyện này hoàn toàn không mới, chỉ là môn Sử trong trường học XHCN chỉ chú trọng vào tô hồng và đoạn hiện đại sau này mà thôi ;)))
    13 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lê Hồng Việt Nếu nghiên cứu sâu hơn nữa, hiện người ta còn đang băn khoăn về lãnh thổ ban đầu của Nam Việt và thậm chí tranh cãi về việc ghi nhận Triệu Đà là 1 triều đại chính thống của người Việt (Việt thật ra có rất nhiều bộ lạc, vì thế mới có từ Bách Việt) thậm chí từ ngữ dân gian bên TQ vẫn gọi tỉnh Quảng Đông là tỉnh...Việt 
    13 hrs · Like · 1
  • Kim Pilger One could argue China is doing the same thing in the East Sea.
    13 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lê Hồng Việt Kim Pilger every nation in this planet used to raise and fall, invade to expand or collapse to disappear. That's life of human society revolution, if today, VN can not keep Eat Sea, Chinese will eat all around nations 
    If you has power, you can survive, if not killed or ruled, that's nature.
    13 hrs · Like
  • Duhwee Pham While this material is nothing new, I'm waiting for the possible butthurt driven aggression.
    13 hrs · Like · 1
  • Lê Hồng Việt And now, US and Western nation rising some sh!t like democracy on Midle East & Arab, that's so funny and the sad thing is a lot of people believe that's true 
    All is money money and money, US and alies try to make the best interest for them, other try to protec themselvs and keep living.
    This world will be destroyed some day not too far in future by human :))
    Good news is all of us here should be dead already at that time 
    13 hrs · Like · 1
  • Nathan Redfearn Dai- Viet? Is that a Welsh Viet Kieu?
    12 hrs · Like · 2
  • Philip Nguyen Dai = great, Dai-Viet = Great Viet Kingdom.
    12 hrs · Like
  • Philip Nguyen At the time invasion began, that great Cham-Pa empire was in a dying stage, as mentioned the Empire was like Greek city-states, not very stable government structure and civil wars for throne were often, as the result VNese army defeted Khmere with an ease, firepower at that time (16th century) was not so effective (especilaly from China), but noise that they make were effective psychological weapon. That invation come just as far as to Da Nang nowdays, the complete invation has done by founders of Nguyen Dynasty, Nguyen Lords, who slowly invade Cham-Pa lands both with force and will, mostly by allying themself with one of fighting faction of Cham-Pa leaders, who fought for throne, at that time Cham-Pa Empire has splited into 3 fighting kingdoms, supporting one of them and switching ally allows Nguyen Lords to increase their lands and influence. Ironicaly very soon the Dai-Viet kingdom fall into its own civil war between 3 factions too. Game of Throne rule - stay strong and united or some one will soon make advantege of you weakness.
    12 hrs · Edited · Like · 2
  • Duhwee Pham I'm definitely amused at how you can still managed to trash Chinese's gun powder, even at 16th century. Good man
    12 hrs · Like · 1
  • Philip Nguyen Dont take its wrong, Chinese will never sell to its neighbour good weapons, they are not fools, especially to a state that has a long history and tradition of war agaisnt them. Remeber (1471)15th century, the firearms were not effective overall, and the Portugal sold it to Japanese and Chinese the not too conventional version of guns, becasue you should not sell good weapons to other guys, and than the Chinese resell those unconventional stuff to Vietnamses, becasue - well you should not be a fool to sell good stuff to your neighbor state, both becasue you will make more profit on cheap stuff and becasue of national security reason. So I think those guns and cannons are from the begining of 15th century, and they are just as good as sound making device to scare poor Khmere plesants who were suffering from civil war, starvaton and were forced into army to fight the same kind of VNese pleasants but 3 times more in number and with those Chinses toys.
    12 hrs · Edited · Like · 4
  • Duhwee Pham True, you're still a good man
    11 hrs · Like
  • Huuthien Duong im a champa descendant
    11 hrs · Like · 2
  • Jackson Tan very educational ! my own knowledge of vietnam history is only until post-1945 era and subsequently vietnam war and sino-vietnamese war.
    7 hrs · Like · 1
  • TQ Hoàng I didn't know the details of this part of history, but I wasn't surprised. Everyone knows how it works, you want more territory, you gotta invade other countries. And everyone knows how much bullshit and propaganda is disguised as history in Vietnam.
    7 hrs · Like · 4
  • Andrew Marvin Ethnic cleansing and genocide. But Kinh Viets are just as likely to admit to it as Americans are to what their ancestors did to the Native Americans.
    6 hrs · Like
  • Matthew Kershaw Jimmy Thai, thanks for the great article.
    5 hrs · Like
  • Philip Nguyen Andrew Marvin There were no ethnic cleaning, because 60,000 Khmere can't be considered as ethnic cleaning, its a normal war casualties, but Vietnamese assimilated those Khmere that lived in the south, imposing VN culture, I'm more than sure there are m...See More
    1 hr · Like · 1
  • S Uper Tlger 60.000khmer ? Lol...Stop pretend to being a stupid and show the truth to the world!!! There are more than 10millions khmer in the south of vietnam nowadays, they are owner of this land
    11 mins · Like
Posted by at No comments:
Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)